Success with Spinecor

[txmarinemom]

If Deutchman turns out to be a chiro and not a legit doctor at this point, I'm going to feel dirty and used by responding to the posts...

Sorry, Sharon ... I thought you knew. I would have saved you some soap .

Pam

[loves to skate]

Dear Danielle,

I'm glad for you that the Spinecor Brace is working well enough for you to continue to skate. No one likes to discontinue doing what their passion is. I don't know as much about scoliosis as many who post here since I was diagnosed late in life and just found out about this forum in March of this year after I had my surgery. I spent over $5,000 of my own money going to a Chiropractor for spinal decompression treatments because I didn't know what else to do since a neurosurgeon told me he wouldn't recommend surgery unless I was in a wheelchair. Did the decompression treatments work? I got some relief for maybe 6 months and the Chiropractor said that maybe I was one of those individuals who needed to have the treatments on a yearly basis. In other words, he was willing to take my money as long as I was willing to give it to him. There will come a time in your life that you are going to want and need a more permanent solution to your scoliosis, and that solution is going to be surgery. The people on this forum don't like to see people like you and me to be fooled by claims made by Chiropractors, so they get very upset when someone like yourself posts as you have with inaccurate information about your curve and what some Dr. may have told you your surgery would require. Pay attention to what these people have to say regarding curves, progression, rod and screws, and what is successful and what is not. Linda Racine is a moderator on this forum because she is extremely knowledgeable regarding scoliosis. Pam is also extremely knowledgeable regarding her scoliosis, as are many others. If you want to prove that you are a nationally and internationally known ice skater, you could do that by including your last name. Then we could at least verify that much. Sally

[green m&m]

LOL at digital protractor

um, year digital or not, someone still has to designate the 'input' to calculate the degree so the only thing a digital protractor would do is measure 10th of a degree or something which is utterly pointless, imo.

what kind of doctor calls people back at midnight? i mean unless they are already your own, and you had called in a question before or you called an on-call doctor with a emergency question at night.

[Qikdraw]

If you want to prove that you are a nationally and internationally known ice skater, you could do that by including your last name. Then we could at least verify that much. Sally

This is what I was thinking as well. Either a google search or I could ask my mother who still takes a high interest in figure skating.

I just did a search for scoliosis and figure skating and came up empty of names. I figure someone of such prominence would have pulled up something.

Go figure.

[shelley]

There is only one nationally (USFSA) and internationally (ISU) ranked skater named Danielle, however she just turned 19. Therefore, I doubt that our poster is this particular skater.

Shelley

[Mom37]

Spinecor

Just an FYI Spinecor is used by Shriner's Hospital in Erie, PA, as one of their braces if recommended by their orthopedic surgeon there. We got a second opinion there, but was not treated there. I posted on the thread Spinecor, but just wanted to let others know. My child had other medical conditions diagnosed after in Spinecor, and after Shriners, and got a third opinion later. It was determined no brace would hold her rapidly progressing curves due to her medical conditions after in bracing, but when choosing bracing, Spinecor was best for my child and her situation at that time. Even though it didn't work for us, it is worth researching for others that might benefit from it. I am happy for anyone who has had good results with Spinecor. If bracing is an option reccommended by your orthopedic surgeon, as was originally by our first, then it is certainly worth looking at all bracing options, including Spinecor. I am not endorsing, or critcising, just stating our situation and my own opinion. Get second opinions and do your homework, this is just a public forum, not a doctors advice. I wish the best to all with scoliosis.

[JAN 76]

I would just like to reiterate the fact that the adult spine cannot straighten if you wear a brace for a while (no matter what kind it is!)- as it is obviously not growing anymore.

I won't go on to repeat everything the other guys have said but I just want to say that I am in full agreement with them. You really need to be careful about what you say on this forum as there are a lot of people on here young and old who need the truth - it is too dangerous not to as this can be a life and death situation for many Scoliosis sufferers.

I would advise anyone who has a problem with Scoliosis - where it is stopping them from having a normal life (because of pain or aesthetic issues) to go ahead with surgery (if the curves are a reasonable size) - however, this is obviously a personal thing and the only person who can make that decision is you.

[concerned dad]

Pam asked in another thread

Anyone remember the self-proclaimed nationally ranked figure skater (skeletally mature) who claimed Spinecor corrected her curve? Her story was as full of holes as this one.

There is a difference between being a shill and being an enthusiastic customer. I was the first of my friends who got a cable modem for internet. My friends were all still on dial-up. I raved about my fast connection and how wonderful the cable modem technology was. I wanted to tell everyone about it. Mrs CD said I sounded like a cable modem salesman. I wasn’t, I just discovered a good thing and wanted to share it. How many people here weigh the information contained in user reviews on Amazon before you buy something. I read them; the good and the bad, and then I make up my own mind.

I’m not saying that addressing miss-statements (12 rods and 24 screws) or zealous claims (adult curve correction) is wrong. I just think it can be done with a bit more civility. This young woman had something to add and she was chased away. This forum is the worse for it, not the better.

Danielle pleads in her last post

I am real, the post is real, my results are real, and don't call me a liar!!!

Do we know that she is not Dr Deutchman pretending to be an ice skater scoliosis patient? No, but you don’t know that I’m a concerned dad. Let’s give folks the benefit of the doubt. You could have helped educate her and she could have helped educate us.

And, by the way, it looks to me like Danielle is real, her post is real, her results are real (at least she thinks they are) and she is not a liar. I suppose she could be a paid actor, but I like to believe in the goodness of humanity (noticeably present on the surgery threads but largely absent on the non-surgical threads).

You tube testamonial

[Pooka1]

Look all I know is if 2 rods are good, 12 rods must be better, and 48 rods might be the best.

Also, if you can measure a Cobb angle out to 52 places, all the better to know what the curve is doing!

[Pooka1]

And another thing!

If CD insists on being a so-called "voice of reason" all the time, I expect this place is going to get more reasonable very quickly. There is no such thing as making too much sense.

[concerned dad]

Also, if you can measure a Cobb angle out to 52 places, all the better to know what the curve is doing!

Regarding the 10th of a degree thing in Cobb angle measurements. This is something I’ve given some thought to. At first I found it troubling. But, think about it for a moment. It boils down to the significant digits of the measuring device – not the variable you are measuring. What is happening is one is attempting to make a precise measurement of a varying quantity.

Take for example the act of measuring someone’s height. I have learned (from this forum) that a persons height changes through the day. Indeed we have also seen examples of peoples height changing in and out of brace. Suppose that variation is 1 inch. We can accurately measure someones height much better than that 1 inch. Should we just report it to the nearest inch or should we report it to the accuracy of the ruler used to measure it at the time it is measured? I say we report it to the accuracy of the measuring device.

I think it is valid to say someones Cobb angle is 30.5 degrees +/- 5 degrees so long as
1. the +/- 5 degrees is due to some other variation than what is imposed by the accuracy of the measuring device, and
2. you’re measuring device is accurate to the 10th of a degree

Another example is measuring someones weight. A case of measuring a quantity (your weight) that is variable with a device (a scale) that is more precise than the variation.

Bracing studies are designed such that they do not apply significance to a change in Cobb angle unless there is a 5 degree change, but that doesn’t mean they don’t routinely try to measure it down to a more precise level of accuracy.

I sometimes am asked to measure the earth gravity field. We are taught in high school that the acceleration of gravity is 9.8 m/s2 (32 ft/s2). I use a device that measures it down to 8 decimal places. That measured quantity changes with time at a given location (due to the changing positions of the sun and the moon). I am not wrong to record the 8 decimal places as long as I recognize the variation from the sun and moon (introduces variation about 7 decimal places out) and take it into account.

Pam Notes that

In 30 years of having x-rays for JIS, I have never seen a curve measured in tenths of degrees. Curves aren't measured that way.

Three years ago I could only measure the earths gravity field down to 7 decimal places. Now I get 8. Pam, 30 years ago they were using plastic protractors. I read an old paper while we were discussing Cobb angle measurements that compared readings among researchers and mentioned the dubious quality and variations in the protractors used. If I recall correctly, some were even using them incorrectly (measuring from the base of the plastic protractor rather than the zero line). I read another paper out of the Far East where they were talking about digital protractors and the improved readings. Things change, things improve. Does it matter? I dunno. But in this case, I am less prone to criticize someone just because they are reporting a more precise number (so long as conditions 1 and 2 above are met).

[Pooka1]

That post should be up for post of the month... very clearly stated and closely reasoned.

You have astutely outlined the difference between accuracy and precision.

The problem is the folks who are posting angles out to a tenth are least likely to post (or know) that the actual precision of that measurement is ~+/-5*. Even if they (and you) are correct that the accuracy of that measurement is in fact out to the tenths place, the precision makes the tenths place and even the ones place of little merit.

Here's an easy way to put accuracy and precision in perspective using pterodactyls, er, I mean Cobb angles measurement...

We can easily imagine that one radiograph is shot and then the person takes *ONE* lap around the room and shoots another radiograph. Would most folks who have looked at these films think the measurements would agree to a tenth of a degree? I think not. I think if the person didn't move but only breathed ONCE then took another shot that the two numbers would not agree to the tenths.

But the numbers would be within a few degree range. In this case, there is no "actual" measurement, only a ballpark constrained by the curve in a moving animal (human are animals). Essentially, the accuracy is dwarfed by the (lack of) precision due to the nature of the thing.

[LindaRacine]

Hi...

I suspect I've seen many thousands of marked up scoliosis xrays, and I can't remember ever seeing one marked in tenths of degrees.

Regards,
Linda

[Pooka1]

Hi...

I suspect I've seen many thousands of marked up scoliosis xrays, and I can't remember ever seeing one marked in tenths of degrees.

Regards,
Linda

Yes but that doesn't mean that 10 skilled measurers wouldn't be able to measure that curve on that radiograph to the same tenth of a degree. I would not bet against it.

The problem is that if you shot another radiograph it would not agree with the first. And it wouldn't matter it all the ten measurers also agreed on the measurement of the second one to a tenth of a degree.

[LindaRacine]

Yes but that doesn't mean that 10 skilled measurers wouldn't be able to measure that curve on that radiograph to the same tenth of a degree. I would not bet against it.

The problem is that if you shot another radiograph it would not agree with the first. And it wouldn't matter it all the ten measurers also agreed on the measurement of the second one to a tenth of a degree.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that one had anything to do with the other. Your statement is absolutely true. I was implying that a scoliosis specialist would be unlikely to mark up an xray in tenths of degrees.

--Linda